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Like in a retreat pilgrimage type center, or maybe within palliative care. Those religions featured psychedelic beer and ceremonies lead by women . So the basic point being, as far as we can tell, beer and wine are routinely mixed with things that we don't do today. Now, it's just an early indication and there's more testing to be done. Now, it doesn't have to be the Holy Grail that was there at the Last Supper, but when you think about the sacrament of wine that is at the center of the world's biggest religion of 2.5 billion people, the thing that Pope Francis says is essential for salvation, I mean, how can we orient our lives around something for which there is little to no physical data? And I just happened to fall into that at the age of 14 thanks to the Jesuits, and just never left it behind. CHARLES STANG: OK, great. I will ask Brian to describe how he came to write this remarkable book, and the years of sleuthing and studying that went into it. And as a lawyer, I know what is probative and what's circumstantial evidence, and I just-- I don't see it there. he goes out on a limb and says that black nightshade actually causes [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH], which is not unpleasant visions, i.e. Thank you, sir. CHARLES STANG: I do, too. According to Muraresku, this work, BOOK REVIEW which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? But what we do know about the wine of the time is that it was routinely mixed with plants and herbs and potentially fungi. But in any case, Ruck had his career, well, savaged, in some sense, by the reaction to his daring to take this hypothesis seriously, this question seriously. No, I think you-- this is why we're friends, Charlie. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. What was being thrown into it? Perhaps more generally, you could just talk about other traditions around the Mediterranean, North African, or, let's even say Judaism. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. And there were moments when the sunlight would just break through. But I mentioned that we've become friends because it is the prerogative of friends to ask hard questions. I see it as-- well, OK, I'd see it as within a minority. So the closer we get to the modern period, we're starting to find beer, wine mixed with interesting things. But in Pompeii, for example, there's the villa of the mysteries, one of these really breathtaking finds that also survived the ravage of Mount Vesuvius. But I realized that in 1977, when he wrote that in German, this was the height of scholarship, at least going out on a limb to speculate about the prospect of psychedelics at the very heart of the Greek mysteries, which I refer to as something like the real religion of the ancient Greeks, by the way, in speaking about the Eleusinian mysteries. When Irenaeus is talking about [SPEAKING GREEK], love potions, again, we have no idea what the hell he's talking about. That's one narrative that I feel is a little sensational. So psychedelics or not, I think it's the cultivation of that experience, which is the actual key. and he said, Brian, don't you dare. The divine personage in whom this cult centered was the Magna Mater Deum who was conceived as the source of all life as well as the personification of all the powers of nature.\[Footnote:] Willoughby, Pagan Regeneration, p. 114.\ 7 She was the "Great Mother" not only "of all the gods," but of all men" as well. And Hofmann famously discovers-- or synthesizes LSD from ergot in 1938. I took this to Greg [? And when we know so much about ancient wine and how very different it was from the wine of today, I mean, what can we say about the Eucharist if we're only looking at the texts? What's significant about these features for our piecing together the ancient religion with no name? The pagan continuity hypothesis theorizes that when Christianity arrived in Greece around AD 49, it didn't suddenly replace the existing religion. It tested positive for the microscopic remains of beer and also ergot, exactly the hypothesis that had been put forward in 1978 by the disgraced professor across town from you, Carl Ruck, who's now 85 years old, by the way. And so for me, this was a hunt through the catacombs and archives and libraries, doing my sweet-talking, and trying to figure out what was behind some of those locked doors. It was-- Eleusis was state-administered, a somewhat formal affair. But I don't understand how that provides any significant link to paleo-Christian practice. I mean, if Burkert was happy to speculate about psychedelics, I'm not sure why Ruck got the reception that he did in 1978 with their book The Road to Eleusis. So why refrain? I'm paraphrasing this one. Others would argue that they are perfectly legal sacraments, at least in the Native American church with the use of peyote, or in the UDV or Santo Daime, I mean, ayahuasca does work in some syncretic Christian form, right? Just imagine, I have to live with me. Research inside the Church of Saint Faustina and Liberata Fig 1. And it was the Jesuits who encouraged me to always, always ask questions and never take anything at face value. Then I'll ask a series of questions that follow the course of his book, focusing on the different ancient religious traditions, the evidence for their psychedelic sacraments, and most importantly, whether and how the assembled evidence yields a coherent picture of the past. There were formula. It still leaves an even bigger if, Dr. Stang, is which one is psychedelic? I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. Or maybe in palliative care. Maybe there's a spark of the divine within. You want to field questions in both those categories? So there's a house preserved outside of Pompeii, preserved, like so much else, under the ash of Mount Vesuvius's eruption in the year 79 of the Common Era. I mean, so it was Greek. But curiously, it's evidence for a eye ointment which is supposed to induce visions and was used as part of a liturgy in the cult of Mithras. CHARLES STANG: All right. Brian has been very busy taking his new book on the road, of course, all online, and we're very grateful to him for taking the time to join us this evening. BRIAN MURARESKU: I don't-- I don't claim too heavily. Because for many, many years, you know, Ruck's career takes a bit of a nosedive. So Pompeii and its environs at the time were called [SPEAKING GREEK], which means great Greece. Read more 37 people found this helpful Helpful Report abuse Tfsiebs So much research! CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF WORLD RELIGIONS, Harvard Divinity School42 Francis Avenue, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 617.495.4495, my.hds |Harvard Divinity School |Harvard University |Privacy |Accessibility |Digital Accessibility | Trademark Notice |Reporting Copyright Infringements. Now, I've never done them myself, but I have talked to many, many people who've had experience with psychedelics. So if you don't think that you are literally consuming divine blood, what is the point of religion? And Ruck, and you following Ruck, make much of this, suggesting maybe the Gnostics are pharmacologists of some kind. By which I mean that the Gospel of John suggests that at the very least, the evangelist hoped to market Christianity to a pagan audience by suggesting that Jesus was somehow equivalent to Dionysus, and that the Eucharist, his sacrament of wine, was equivalent to Dionysus's wine. She had the strange sense that every moment was an eternity of its own. Maybe I have that wrong. So if we can test Eucharistic vessels, I wouldn't be surprised at all that we find one. But it just happens to show up at the right place at the right time, when the earliest Christians could have availed themselves of this kind of sacrament. 32:57 Ancient languages and Brian's education . BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. And Dennis, amongst others, calls that a signature Dionysian miracle. That event is already up on our website and open for registration. BRIAN MURARESKU: OK. Rather, Christian beliefs were gradually incorporated into the pagan customs that already existed there. Tim Ferriss Show #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Psychedelics, and More. Lots of Greek artifacts, lots of Greek signifiers. Again, how did Christianity take hold in a world with such a rich mystical tradition? So the Eastern Aegean. I'm going to stop asking my questions, although I have a million more, as you well know, and instead try to ventriloquist the questions that are coming through at quite a clip through the Q&A. 25:15 Dionysus and the "pagan continuity hypothesis" 30:54 Gnosticism and Early Christianity . 283. But it was not far from a well-known colony in [INAUDIBLE] that was founded by Phocians. Nage ?] That to live on forever and ever, to live an everlasting life is not immortality. This 'pagan continuity hypothesis' with a psychedelic twist is now backed up by biochemistry and agrochemistry and tons of historical research, exposing our forgotten history. What does that have to do with Christianity? 13,000 years old. Some number of people have asked about Egypt. That's only after Constantine. So thank you, all who have hung with us. Here's what we don't. CHARLES STANG: Thank you, Brian. Not just in Italy, but as kind of the headquarters for the Mediterranean. And so if there is a place for psychedelics, I would think it would be in one of those sacred containers within monastic life, or pilgrims who visit one of these monastic centers, for example. We have plays like the Bacchi from Euripides, where we can piece together some of this. 8 "The winds, the sea . Do the drugs, Dr. Stang? Psychedelics Today: Mark Plotkin - Bio-Cultural Conservation of the Amazon. In my previous posts on the continuity hypothesis . One attendee has asked, "How have religious leaders reacted so far to your book? Jerry Brown wrote a good review that should be read to put the book in its proper place. And I think there are lots of reasons to believe that. And this is what I present to the world. But I don't hold-- I don't hang my hat on that claim. Well, let's get into it then. 101. CHARLES STANG: All right. And I did not dare. What's the wine? The phrasing used in the book and by others is "the pagan continuity hypothesis". And that's what I get into in detail in the book. They linked the idea of witches to an imagined organized sect which was a danger to the Christian commonwealth. But when it comes to that Sunday ritual, it just, whatever is happening today, it seems different from what may have motivated the earliest Christians, which leads me to very big questions. Tim Ferriss is a self-experimenter and bestselling author, best known for The 4-Hour Workweek, which has been translated into 40+ languages. 1,672. I mean, so Walter Burkert was part of the reason that kept me going on. It is my great pleasure to welcome Brian Muraresku to the Center. And when I started to get closer into the historical period-- this is all prehistory. Not because they just found that altar. And it was their claim that when the hymn to Demeter, one of these ancient records that records, in some form, the proto-recipe for this kykeon potion, which I call like a primitive beer, in the hymn to Demeter, they talk about ingredients like barley, water, and mint. So the big question is, what kind of drug was this, if it was a drug? As a matter of fact, I think it's much more promising and much more fertile for scholarship to suggest that some of the earliest Christians may have availed themselves of a psychedelic sacrament and may have interpreted the Last Supper as some kind of invitation to open psychedelia, that mystical supper as the orthodox call it, [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]. A combination of psychoactive plants, including opium, cannabis, and nightshade, along with the remains of reptiles and amphibians all steeped in wine, like a real witch's brew, uncovered in this house outside of Pompeii. Wonderful, well, thank you. So imagine how many artifacts are just sitting in museums right now, waiting to be tested. So what do we know about those rituals? Examine the pros and cons of the continuity theory of aging, specifically in terms of how it neglects to consider social institutions or chronically ill adults. These Native American church and the UDV, both some syncretic form of Christianity. That's the promise in John's gospel, in John 6:54-55, that I quote in the book. It's this 22-acre site of free-standing limestone, some rising 20 feet in the air, some weighing 50 tons. 40:15 Witches, drugs, and the Catholic Church . And besides that, young Brian, let's keep the mysteries mysteries. And I think it's very important to be very honest with the reader and the audience about what we know and what we don't. The answer seems to be connected to psychedelic drugs. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. So that's something else to look into. He dared to ask this very question before the hypothesis that this Eleusinian sacrament was indeed a psychedelic, and am I right that it was Ruck's hypothesis that set you down this path all those many years ago at Brown? #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More And let's start with our earliest evidence from the Stone Age and the Bronze Age. There have been breakthroughs, too, which no doubt kept Brian going despite some skepticism from the academy, to say the least. Now is there any evidence for psychedelic use in ancient Egypt, and if not, do you have any theory as to why that's silent? But the point being, if the Dionysian wine was psychedelic-- which I know is a big if-- I think the more important thing to show here in this pagan continuity hypothesis is that it's at least plausible that the earliest Christians would have at the very least read the Gospel of John and interpreted that paleo-Christian Eucharistic wine, in some communities, as a kind of Dionysian wine. Here's the proof of concept. As much as we know about the mysteries of Eleusis. Again, if you're attracted to psychedelics, it's kind of an extreme thing, right? And he was actually going out and testing some of these ancient chalices. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. So again, if there were an early psychedelic sacrament that was being suppressed, I'd expect that the suppressors would talk about it. Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. CHARLES STANG: OK. But we do know that the initiates made this pilgrimage from Athens to Eleusis, drunk the potion, the kykeon, had this very visionary event-- they all talk about seeing something-- and after which they become immortal. So my biggest question is, what kind of wine was it? You become one with Christ by drinking that. BRIAN MURARESKU: Now we're cooking with grease, Dr. Stang. A rebirth into a new conception of the self, the self's relationship to things that are hard to define, like God. What was the real religion of the ancient Greeks? This two-part discussion between Muraresku and Dr. Plotkin examines the role psychedelics have played in the development of Western civilization. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. And according to Wasson, Hofmann, and Ruck, that barley was really a code word. To this day I remain a psychedelic virgin quite proudly, and I spent the past 12 years, ever since that moment in 2007, researching what Houston Smith, perhaps one of the most influential religious historians of the 20th century, would call the best kept secret in history. General Stanley McChrystal Mastering Risk: A User's Guide | Brought to you by Kettle & Fire high quality, tasty, and conveniently packaged bone broths; Eight Sleep. But please do know that we will forward all these questions to Brian so he will know the sorts of questions his work prompts. It was a pilgrimage site. Now I understand and I appreciate the pharmaceutical industry's ability to distribute this as medicine for those who are looking for alternatives, alternative treatments for depression and anxiety and PTSD and addiction and end of life distress. Church of the Saints Faustina and Liberata, view from the outside with the entrance enclosure, at "Sante" place, Capo di Ponte (Italy). First, the continuity of the offices must be seen in light of the change of institutional charges; they had lost their religious connotations and had become secular. 36:57 Drug-spiked wine . So I'm trying to build the case-- and for some reason in my research, it kept coming back to Italy and Rome, which is why I focus on Hippolytus. . Then I see the mysteries of Dionysus as kind of the Burning Man or the Woodstock of the ancient world. McGovern also finds wine from Egypt, for example, in 3150 BC, wine that is mixed with a number of interesting ingredients. You see an altar of Pentelic marble that could only have come from the Mount Pentelicus quarry in mainland Greece. It's some kind of wine-based concoction, some kind of something that is throwing these people into ecstasy. So I don't write this to antagonize them or the church, the people who, again, ushered me into this discipline and into these questions. So if Eleusis is the Fight Club of the ancient world, right, the first rule is you don't talk about it. Which is a very weird thing today. If your history is even remotely correct, that would have ushered in a very different church, if Valentinus's own student Marcus and the Marcosians were involved in psychedelic rituals, then that was an early road not taken, let's say. But I do want to push back a little bit on the elevation of this particular real estate in southern Italy. But we at least have, again, the indicia of evidence that something was happening there. But clearly, when you're thinking about ancient Egypt or elsewhere, there's definitely a funerary tradition.